Rules/FAQ | Memberlist | Calendar | Stats | Online users | Last posts | Search
|
| ||
| Views: 24,290,710 |
Home
| Forums
| Uploader
| Wiki
| Object databases
| IRC
Rules/FAQ | Memberlist | Calendar | Stats | Online users | Last posts | Search |
03-28-25 04:55 AM |
| Guest: | ||
| 0 users reading Model formats - A better understanding | 1 bot |
| Main - Archived forums - SMG documentations and tutorials - Model formats - A better understanding | Hide post layouts | New reply |
| SuperMario64DS |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 27 Posts: 1/141 EXP: 111513 Next: 4646 Since: 02-03-13 Last post: 3001 days ago Last view: 2887 days ago |
I am doing an extensive analysis on the two related formats used primarily by the GameCube and Wii, BMD and BDL.
As far as I know, no easily readable, fully complete analysis exists. The goal here is to completely break this format down into simple text, on this page here: http://wiki.tockdom.com/wiki/BMD_and_BDL_(File_Format) What's currently on that documentation has been done me (With some assistance from other Custom Mario Kart members), very incomplete and bound to have some sort of error somewhere. I'm looking for anyone to help further the understanding of this format, many seem to yet a complete and readable analysis is still absent. Pretty much what we're looking for here would be anything that could be found useful in an editor, such as allowing Mipmap display, opacity or skinning, things that aren't quite fully understood or figured out yet. We can't hold out, and deal with blocky, vertex colour-less unanimated models forever. Plans to add BDL support to the popular Brawl editing software, BrawlBox, has been rumoured for quite some time, however, the creators won't even consider other formats without a full analysis. Whether they do or not, it's always useful to have a complete analysis of the common formats used by the game. It took them approximately 8 years to figure out vertex colouring for Super Mario 64 (Considering the start of it's hacking existence, not that were ever trying to figure out during the majority of that period), so why let this newer game be limited to dull, really bright models that have to use dozens of funky workarounds to look proper in game? My experience with programming is very limited, the best I've made would have been a small editor for MSBT Files, and some super ancient 2008 online game "Trainer", which is too embarrassing to talk about (Not to mention Assembly Sonic hacks, but we won't go into that right now). Perhaps if the analysis were more extensive, I could attempt to further extend my programming knowledge and attempt to make such an editor. Before anybody may think it's un important, try this comparison: This hideously bright place: To this colourful shader/vertex colour implemented place: Later on I'd like to perform a similar analysis on the game's main system as well, such as finding specific memory functions and RAM addresses - Anything we discover and put together will benefit the community. So please, if you know anything, please share it here or add it to the page mentioned above. After nearly 500 different BMDs and BDLs having had been analyzed by me, I'd like further assistance from others to help fully crack this format. |
| SquidEmpress |
| ||
|
Faking your suicide is a terrible thing to do. Get out. Level: 101 
Posts: 84/2912 EXP: 10469830 Next: 247845 Since: 01-30-13 Last post: 3534 days ago Last view: 3534 days ago |
I am a bit confused. Are you talking about the Object database? ____________________ Super Mario LOLand Thanks to kaj for helping to port my Acmlmboard 2.5 layout to Acmlmboard 2.064! |
| shibboleet |
| ||
 Fire Mario DROP TABLE users; Level: 124 Posts: 1053/4661 EXP: 21691407 Next: 145194 Since: 07-07-12 Last post: 1685 days ago Last view: 698 days ago |
Fix the 2nd link.
Other then that, nice 
Blarg, read the thread again >.< It's about the format. ____________________ a |
| blank |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 26 Posts: 43/129 EXP: 99863 Next: 2412 Since: 07-08-12 Last post: 3678 days ago Last view: 2651 days ago |
Posted by SuperMario64DS Have you actually talked to BlackJax about this, or have you just heard some rumours? Because I don't really feel it's worth the time to write a full description if I'm the only one working on BDL editing tools anyway. |
| SuperMario64DS |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 27 Posts: 2/141 EXP: 111513 Next: 4646 Since: 02-03-13 Last post: 3001 days ago Last view: 2887 days ago |
Posted by blank They have hinted support for other games before, Twilight Princess & such. Even so, this information should be readily available to anyone who needs it, there are other people within the Mario Kart community as well who have an interest in this format too. |
| NWPlayer123 |
| ||
|
Member Imma Snuggle You Level: 111 
Posts: 1448/3604 EXP: 14748486 Next: 119874 Since: 07-07-12 From: Colorado Last post: 3438 days ago Last view: 1596 days ago |
This is kinda off-topic, but Twilight Princess can already be somewhat hacked, since Wind Maker supports Twilight Princess (to an extent), however, it uses BMD or BDL as well, so IDK why.
However, I do agree with blank being hesitant to fully figure all this stuff out. ____________________ "I hate playing musical chats" ~ Quote of the month |
| SuperMario64DS |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 27 Posts: 3/141 EXP: 111513 Next: 4646 Since: 02-03-13 Last post: 3001 days ago Last view: 2887 days ago |
Please, that's not helping. The longer you withhold any information, the longer you'll have to to wait for good, rigged, models. Again, there are many people interested in this format, many thinking of Zelda hacks, many in Mario Kart hacking, people here, and myself as well.
If you choose to not release this information, go ahead. Just keep in mind that you're ceasing any opportunities for this possibility of a more functional importer & editor being created. |
| blank |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 26 Posts: 44/129 EXP: 99863 Next: 2412 Since: 07-08-12 Last post: 3678 days ago Last view: 2651 days ago |
Posted by SuperMario64DS I do agree that the BMD/BDL file format should be documented in such a way, but if there's nobody who actually needs it, I don't really feel like writing it at the moment. Posted by NWPlayer123 It's not about figuring anything out. Everything but a few minor things has been figured out. It's just about writing documentation. EDIT: Posted by SuperMario64DS If anybody is interested in working on BMD/BDL editing, they can contact me. And I'm not withholding any information, I just choose not to write it up in an easy accessible way. The most important parts of the documentation can already be found in the source of bmdview2 anyway. |
| dash |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 9 Posts: 2/11 EXP: 2428 Next: 734 Since: 02-08-13 Last post: 4416 days ago Last view: 4412 days ago |
It's my intention to mess around with the bmdview2 codebase, I created a googlecode copy of it here:
http://code.google.com/p/bmdview2/ I don't know how long I'll mess with it until I run out of steam... at the moment I want to make it easier to navigate around the model, maybe use the mouse to "drag" the screen. Similiar to google earth and white hole. |
| Arisotura |
| ||
 Star Mario in this room you have a pile of apple pies Level: 165 
Posts: 1019/9069 EXP: 58900875 Next: 34806 Since: 07-03-12 From: in a box 
Last post: 13 hours ago Last view: 13 hours ago |
Interesting!
Something that would definitely be lovely would be to combine editing/importing abilities into bmdview2. Oh and if you need help with reverse-engineering stuff or whatever, you can try asking me. No guarantee I'll be able to answer, though. But I'm available. ____________________ NSMBHD - Kafuka - Jul melonDS the most fruity DS emulator there is zafkflzdasd |
| dash |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 9 Posts: 3/11 EXP: 2428 Next: 734 Since: 02-08-13 Last post: 4416 days ago Last view: 4412 days ago |
Posted by Mega-Mario I've managed to get the mouse control working pretty well in bmdview2. The codebase I'm starting from seems to have a few issues, as in the text overlays are not visible, and the gl shaders don't seem to be rendering everything correctly. http://code.google.com/p/bmdview2/ As regards reverse engineering the bdl/bmd format, I wonder if the format makes use of bump mapping? |
| NWPlayer123 |
| ||
|
Member Imma Snuggle You Level: 111
Posts: 1560/3604 EXP: 14748486 Next: 119874 Since: 07-07-12 From: Colorado Last post: 3438 days ago Last view: 1596 days ago |
IDK anything about the Wii's GPU or rendering, but I'm wondering if the code is missing TEV stages. I know that Whitehole's rendering works almost perfectly for stuff except transparency like in Sky Station with that one planet that you go inside with the giant bullet bills. ____________________ "I hate playing musical chats" ~ Quote of the month |
| Arisotura |
| ||
|
Star Mario in this room you have a pile of apple pies Level: 165
Posts: 1041/9069 EXP: 58900875 Next: 34806 Since: 07-03-12 From: in a box
Last post: 13 hours ago Last view: 13 hours ago |
| dash |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 9 Posts: 4/11 EXP: 2428 Next: 734 Since: 02-08-13 Last post: 4416 days ago Last view: 4412 days ago |
I realized the text overlay is off by default, you had to hit tab to get it to show up. I changed it so it's visible all the time.
The issue with the shader not rendering correctly... I realized it is rendering the textures but they're just very dark. So I think it's a lighting issue. Hitting the 'g' key causes the program to fallback to some other rendering approach (standard GL without shader language?) and that looks like it matches the real program more closely. Here's an image with the shaders on: ![[image]](http://www.xdr.com/misc/with_shader.jpg)
Here's one with the shaders off (using the fallback rendering, whatever it is...) ![[image]](http://www.xdr.com/misc/without_shader.jpg) |
| blank |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 26 Posts: 47/129 EXP: 99863 Next: 2412 Since: 07-08-12 Last post: 3678 days ago Last view: 2651 days ago |
The dark textures might be caused by ColorChanInfo, which thakis didn't get quite right. It should be
struct ColorChanInfo
{ u8 enable; u8 matColorSource; u8 litMask; u8 diffuseAttenuationFunc; u8 attenuationFracFunc; u8 ambColorSource; u8 pad[2]; }; As for bump mapping that's done through indirect texturing. The information on indirect texturing is stored in MatIndirectTexturingEntry struct IndTexOrder { u8 texcoord; u8 texmap; u16 padding0; }; struct IndTexMatrix { f32 offset_matrix[2][3]; s8 scale_exponent; u8 padding0[3]; }; struct IndTexCoordScale { u8 scale_s; u8 scale_t; u16 padding0; }; struct TevIndirect { u8 indtex; u8 format; u8 bias; u8 mtx; u8 wrap_s; u8 wrap_t; u8 addprev; u8 utclod; u8 a; u8 padding0[3]; }; struct MatIndirectTexturingEntry { u8 unknown0; // always 0 or 1 u8 unknown1; // unknown1 = unknown0, one of these are numindtexs u16 padding0; IndTexOrder indtexorder[4]; // arguments to GX_SetIndTexOrder IndTexMatrix indtexmatrix[3]; // arguments to GX_SetIndTexMatrix IndTexCoordScale indtexcoordscale[4]; // arguments to GX_SetIndTexCoordScale TevIndirect tevindirect[16]; // arguments to GX_SetTevIndirect }; |
| dash |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 9 Posts: 5/11 EXP: 2428 Next: 734 Since: 02-08-13 Last post: 4416 days ago Last view: 4412 days ago |
Posted by blank I made that change in ordering but it didn't improve anything. For the scene I'm viewing (WoodCircleCutPlanet.bdl, which is in the BigTree2Galaxy in whitehole) both the enable and litMask fields are 0 in all cases. I dug a bit just to understand the discussion of indirect texturing, found out bump maps are often done by making use of a height map (an array of scalers) by finding the partial derivatives in x and y to get the surface normal... and also to understand a little better the gamecube pipeline. But I'm not sure if this is associated with the dark texture issue. |
| blank |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 26 Posts: 48/129 EXP: 99863 Next: 2412 Since: 07-08-12 Last post: 3678 days ago Last view: 2651 days ago |
I took a quick look at the shader generation code, and rasterizer color selection isn't implemented. That could be the cause of the dark textures. |
| dash |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 9 Posts: 6/11 EXP: 2428 Next: 734 Since: 02-08-13 Last post: 4416 days ago Last view: 4412 days ago |
Posted by blank I'm not sure of that, I checked the fragment shader code at it is outputting a color c0: vec4 c0 = vec4(-1.447059, -0.400000, -0.098039, 0.172549); if I force "ONE" to be used instead of c0, the grass looks correct. The code is from the MAT 6 (numbered from 0). WoodCircleCutPlanet.bdl_frag_6.txt the colorS10 pick array contains colorS10: 0005000600020003 and the colors are these: colorS10: 00ff00ff00ff0000 0000000000000170 00ff00ff00ff00ff 0000000000000000 fe8fff9affe7002c 006500650065ffcb 012f012f012f011b (7 many) It's like the material is asking for color 5 there but is getting 4... that fe8f ff9a ffe7 002c is the c0 rgba values in signed 16 bit... EDIT: Whoops I was looking at mat7. mat6 colorS10 pick is this: colorS10: 0004000100020003 EDIT2: If I make it so the starting color register c0 comes from the color3 pick array, the scene looks much nicer, and the green is perfect on the grass. const Color16& c = mat.colorS10[currMat.color3[i==0?3:i-1]]; //XXXX ????? (sunflower.bmd)
as opposed to const Color16& c = mat.colorS10[currMat.colorS10[i]]; //XXXX ?????
But that change makes the Mario.bdl model look too white and overexposed. Not sure if I'm looking in the right place. |
| blank |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 26 Posts: 49/129 EXP: 99863 Next: 2412 Since: 07-08-12 Last post: 3678 days ago Last view: 2651 days ago |
After a considerably closer look I can say that it is definitely lighting that's the issue. That particular material has the alpha channel lit but not the RGB channel. But bmdview2 only checks whether the RGB channel is lit. That and lighting isn't really implemented. |
| dash |
| ||
|
Normal user Level: 9 Posts: 7/11 EXP: 2428 Next: 734 Since: 02-08-13 Last post: 4416 days ago Last view: 4412 days ago |
Posted by blank I'm completely lost, I'm trying to figure out what you're saying here. I don't know which controls in the material you're speaking of, I don't grasp the precise usage of "lit" or "channel". I'm very familiar with opengl and shader language, but the gamecube/wii graphics pipeline is relatively new to me and the bmd graphics format is new also. The only document I've located that provides info on the gamecube pipeline is this: http://www.amnoid.de/gc/tev.html EDIT: Possibly your statements are connected to your definition of the ColorChanInfo struct you provided earlier. That has 2 fields, enable and litMask. In the WoodCircleCutPlanet.bdl the array of those structures has 5 entries: colorChanInfo: 000100020100ffff 010104020100ffff 010000010000ffff 000000000200ffff 000000020100ffff (5 many) The material 6 structure has this for chanControls: chanControls (?): 0000000100020003 The bmdview2 source looks at chanControls[0] (the first entry, 0000). The whitehole source just skips over the chanControls array. |
| Main - Archived forums - SMG documentations and tutorials - Model formats - A better understanding | Hide post layouts | New reply |
|
Page rendered in 0.134 seconds. (2048KB of memory used) MySQL - queries: 28, rows: 238/238, time: 0.031 seconds. ![[powered by Acmlm]](img/poweredbyacmlm.png "powering nostalgia")
Acmlmboard 2.064 (2018-07-20)© 2005-2008 Acmlm, Xkeeper, blackhole89 et al. |