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11-20-17 09:37 PM
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Main - Serious discussion - Las Vegas shooting New reply

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PaperplateismGuy
Posted on 10-03-17 10:59 PM Link | #89965
Posted by RicBent
I just don't understand why'd you ever need a gun in a modern society. They are literally useless.

And even if he only had a normal gun. People 'd have died.


With that terrorist attack in France, back in 2015, civilian ownership of guns would have been handy.

Posted by Belsaw
Okay, let's say guns were never invented and no one ever thinks about the idea of guns. Well all mass shootings that have occured will still take place except they're now vehicular attacks and mass stabbings. As long as psychopathy and extremism aren't taken care of, people will use anything they can as a weapon: knives, bike locks, hammers, clothes hangers, you name it. Yes maybe that would mean less deaths but you never know what could possibly happen. If people really want to create a mass casuality and they have no guns, they would probably illegally build a bomb. If someone wanted to commit suicide and they do not have a gun, they would probably jump off a high place or threaten a police officer with a knife.

Think of it like vehicles. After all, both guns and vehicles can be used to murder people. Drive with responsibility and you'll be fine. If someone hijacks a truck that you need to obtain a special license in order to drive and uses it to run over people, should we get rid of all vehicles including Smart Cars and Mini Coopers? Remember any vehicle can be used as a weapon. Or would it be more effective to treat the root cause (mental illness or extremist ideology) instead?

If a faulty wire in a building keeps on causing fires that spread to other buildings, should we get rid of the building or should we fix the building's electrical system?

Yes, I know no one is denying mental illness but it is the main cause. The shooter was also found to apparently have explosives in their house. If they had no guns they could have gone the route of Timothy McVeigh or the Tsarnaev Brothers. Like I said, in theory things would be better with no guns. But then again, that begs the question of what about explosives and vehicles.

But alas, it seems people will always find a way (and excuse) to kill each other.

Edit: I should expand upon guns vs. other weapons. Yes, a mass stabbing does not kill and injure as many people as a mass shooting but it is still a mass attack. Let's go back to the building example. Let's say the building is made out of concrete. Sure, it doesn't burn down but it still had a fire.


I agree with Luigi442wii. ^ Well said, Belsaw.


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StapleButter
Posted on 10-03-17 11:12 PM (rev. 2 of 10-03-17 11:29 PM) Link | #89966
civilian ownership of guns means I could as well get a gun, go to some crowded place and start shooting at people

well, of course there are ways to get a gun anyway, but why would you make it way easier for anybody

of course there are many creative ways to murder people, but why would you just hand guns to people and make it easy

"vehicles can be used as weapons" but they aren't meant to be. guns, on the other hand, are weapons. you don't use a gun to open your champ bottle or clean your dishes or drill a hole in your wall.


I'm reacting to what I'm reading, as I go.


I mean, sure, guns aren't the main problem here. but you know, let me put it this way.

with strangers, I tend to avoid arguments, which contrasts with my general behavior if you know me. I worry that I might face the angry/violent douchebag kind, who will start raging and throwing insults and eventually want to start a fight. I stand no chance in a fight. I don't want to get in a fight, but I don't want to have to choose the other option and get humiliated as I flee. so I avoid these situations.

it's bad enough.

I don't want to have to worry about suddenly losing my life to an argument, or for whatever reason.

"oh but they can also kill you without a gun"

sure they can, but a knife is another deal entirely, and does not guarantee the attacker will win. and so on. the gun is pretty much instant win.


so no, giving guns to random folks isn't a good idea.



also


Posted by Baby Luigi
I also keep hearing anti-gun regulation people bring up "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." I'd like to remind everyone that this entire saying rests on a logical fallacy, the false dichotomy. It's not one or either when the problem is clearly both. If the person holding the gun doesn't have the gun, he wouldn't kill, and of course, the gun by itself is harmless. BOTH are the problem, not just one or the either. That means we should regulate guns more strictly AND concern ourselves with mental healthcare, something the GOP wants to curb both from for whatever hell reason.

yeah.

someone who is motivated to kill will manage to find a way, but the outcome will be different based on whether you arm them with a stick or with an AK-47.

you also get people who wouldn't have attempted a killing or an attack with a stick or even with a knife, because they would take a risk by doing so, but the ease and safety provided by a gun would motivate them to shoot their opponent and feel powerful.

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IceFairyAmy
Posted on 10-04-17 08:08 AM (rev. 2 of 10-04-17 08:09 AM) Link | #89972
Posted by StapleButter
civilian ownership of guns means I could as well get a gun, go to some crowded place and start shooting at people

well, of course there are ways to get a gun anyway, but why would you make it way easier for anybody

Agreed. People who are persistent enough to do such terrors as this will do it but others may not do it if it's against the law. ^-^

Also yay, 100th post in a serious thread.

Layout thanks to Thierry ^-^

GalacticPirate
Posted on 10-04-17 08:40 AM Link | #89973
OK. Fuck the NRA. They should all get in jail because they are assassins. Anyone against gun control or anyone supporting the NRA is mentally disabled and should go see a doctor.

Yes, it would be much better if guns were straight up forbidden, everyone knows this. Guns have exactly zero purpose in the modern society, and the killing rate in the US vs the rest of first-world countries very well shows that. However, even with the Muricans being stubborn, gun control is mandatory. The idiot named Trump allowed metally ill people to get guns. Like, wtf? OK, let's keep guns allowed, buit fucking control them. Don't let people sell them in the market without even having to give papers or stuff like that. Make a gun permit or whatever, but stop defending this nonsense.

Also, comparing guns with planes or cars is logical fallacy. The purpose of guns IS to kill people, they were created to kill people, and the use of a gun leads to someone getting killed, that's all. Cars were meant to transport people.

Izmirnator
Posted on 10-04-17 10:01 AM (rev. 2 of 10-04-17 10:02 AM) Link | #89974
I just don‘t get it why there sill exist idiots who are taking a lot of people‘s wife. As sad as I am after my father died at cancer a month ago, I feel very sad for all the innocent people who lost their lifes and the ones, who were affected. May those innocent people rest well and my thoughts goes to all the families and friends of the victims.

RicBent
Posted on 10-04-17 03:51 PM Link | #89985

"With that terrorist attack in France, back in 2015, civilian ownership of guns would have been handy."

Lol no. Panicing civilians randomly trying to shoot the assasins and killing other civilians is what'd have happened.

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LeftyGreenMario
Posted on 10-05-17 03:50 AM (rev. 2 of 10-05-17 03:53 AM) Link | #90006
Posted by Baby Luigi
That means we should regulate guns more strictly AND concern ourselves with mental healthcare, something the GOP wants to curb both from for whatever hell reason.

it's completely disingenuous when the GOP, the gun apologists, deflect to mental health while they try their best to make it easier for mentally ill people to get guns and also try to pass laws relaxing regulations on fucking silencers

how is this Republican Party mainstream, how does this disgusting party get any votes, and who actually believes in their self-contradicting drivel and how do people seriously believe the delusion that U.S. is among the best nation in the world when it's overall awfully lackluster?

GalacticPirate
Posted on 10-05-17 06:46 AM Link | #90012
Posted by LeftyGreenMario
it's completely disingenuous when the GOP, the gun apologists, deflect to mental health while they try their best to make it easier for mentally ill people to get guns and also try to pass laws relaxing regulations on fucking silencers

how is this Republican Party mainstream, how does this disgusting party get any votes, and who actually believes in their self-contradicting drivel and how do people seriously believe the delusion that U.S. is among the best nation in the world when it's overall awfully lackluster?

I know, right? The Republican party is fare more right-wing than anything existing in Europe. In France, Trump's comment about the Nov. 2015 attacks was unanimously considered as bullshit. Yes, in France, even the far-right doesn't consider touching the gun legislation. Gun debates have actually been out of politics since ages, because everyone agrees guns must be forbidden.

XenonNSMB
Posted on 10-05-17 08:18 AM Link | #90015
Just gonna weigh in here real quick:

Anyone with a license in America can walk into Walmart and buy a gun, then go somewhere crowded (like a church) and shoot people. That's a problem.





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<~StapleButter> the AJ7 is an automatic rifle model based on the well-known AK47

IceFairyAmy
Posted on 10-05-17 08:32 AM Link | #90019
...
America really needs to fix this... seriously, that's just ridiculous.

Layout thanks to Thierry ^-^

LeftyGreenMario
Posted on 10-05-17 03:16 PM Link | #90048
They won't because the NRA is a powerful, rich lobby and while the Democrats pretend to care and always try to bring up gun control in the debate, it's the Republicans who don't want a single thing done and resort to extremely flawed NRA talking points like "it's not people, it's guns" or "it doesn't matter if it's illegal if criminals don't care about the law", "why not outlaw cars since they kill more people", "it's not guns, it's mental health care" (no one has ever, EVER denied the mental health component and IMO I'd imagine there are shooters who have NO prior record of mental health illness; the only consistent profile of a shooter is that they're male).

They won't increase funding for anything aside the military, they won't want to touch healthcare other than crippling it by repealing the only half-decent healthcare plan (they tried repealing it at least 54 times. FIFTY-FOUR times and that doesn't count the times when Donald Tr*mp was elected, only because it goes against their ideology of "big government is bad" and how "it's socialism and it's bad", they are a party of anti-science who try to be dishonest and politicize science (and they refuse to fund CDC studies on gun violence because the studies always suggest results the NRA does not like, (link to Scientific American again) and they're extremely complacent to Neo-Nazis, sexists, and white supremacists just because that's their base now. Conservatism is a fucking joke, at least in America, and hell, I won't even call them conservatism. They want change all right, because they don't like Obama and they think Obama is too liberal and that's ridiculous.

Rant over.

P.S. Gun control debate shouldn't even be a thing, It's ridiculous that it is in America only because gun-rights cherry pick the Constitution and abide by that single part of the 2nd amendment without appreciating the actual context behind the 2nd amendment, including its historical context and how irrelevant the 2nd amendment honestly is today, just as irrelevant as the 3rd amendment.

shibboleet
Posted on 10-07-17 10:08 AM (rev. 2 of 10-07-17 10:10 AM) Link | #90141

This song fits a lot of concepts perfectly. It's about how news stations glorify names of shooters and terrorist names, which can easily make other possible terrorists/shooters idol the person and try it out themselves.

This is probably the most relate able verse:
You made certain they were right at the top of the page
You disrespected the dead
When the only name was of the one who committed the murder at the top of the page
The madman watching with glee
As the herd of innocents flee
They saw it all unfold right on the face of the screen
Perhaps they could be the one
Who'd become famous for the acts of terror reflected on the face of the screen?


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RanAS
Posted on 10-07-17 10:17 AM Link | #90142
I must say I feel incredibly sad by the losses on that day, as I usually am when I see people killing others purely out of evil. I'm sorry any of this happened, and I hope for the best in the recovery of everyone involved in this, to the people that were there, and to their relatives, friends and anyone else affected by it.

I was going to reserve the rest of this post to the discussion that was happening a bit earlier in this thread, but I don't want to disrespect the people affected by this. I might post it later as a separate thread, in Serious Discussion as well, but not here.
"I forgot what I was going to say."

Fruit Smasher
Posted on 10-27-17 09:25 AM Link | #90846
What happened was terrible, without a doubt.

What is really confusing about this whole mess is that the man had no prior arrests, except for one traffic violation.

However, I think people are jumping to conclusions way too much instead of looking at the bigger picture. There's a problem with the current gun system but it's especially not as easy as removing them entirely. Someone like the las vegas shooter was planning this all along, it wasn't an "oh I have a gun let me shoot people". If he didn't have the guns in the first place he still would have attempted to shoot civilians, mainly with the support of the black market.

If guns were removed entirely, do you think mass shootings would just go down? No, they wouldn't. Pre-meditated mass shootings such as Columbine, Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, etc., would have happened anyway. Again, with either the black market or a connection with someone who would have a gun.

It's not about mass stabbings or whatever, obviously, that wouldn't happen if guns were removed. It would just prompt shooters to find a different alternative to get guns, not a substitute for them.

GalacticPirate
Posted on 10-27-17 09:47 AM Link | #90848
Posted by Fruit Smasher
What happened was terrible, without a doubt.

What is really confusing about this whole mess is that the man had no prior arrests, except for one traffic violation.

However, I think people are jumping to conclusions way too much instead of looking at the bigger picture. There's a problem with the current gun system but it's especially not as easy as removing them entirely. Someone like the las vegas shooter was planning this all along, it wasn't an "oh I have a gun let me shoot people". If he didn't have the guns in the first place he still would have attempted to shoot civilians, mainly with the support of the black market.

If guns were removed entirely, do you think mass shootings would just go down? No, they wouldn't. Pre-meditated mass shootings such as Columbine, Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, etc., would have happened anyway. Again, with either the black market or a connection with someone who would have a gun.

It's not about mass stabbings or whatever, obviously, that wouldn't happen if guns were removed. It would just prompt shooters to find a different alternative to get guns, not a substitute for them.

This is false. The US have the highest rate of deaths due to guns out of all the 1st-world wountries. And it is the only one that allows guns. Getting weapons on the black market is much harder than simply going to a Walmart and buying ten of them.

Fruit Smasher
Posted on 10-29-17 04:02 PM Link | #90875
I don't understand what pointing out the death rate in the U.S. has anything to do with my post or its credibility.

Getting an illegal gun is not as difficult as you may think. I can't really search up any statistics because I'm going to ring NSA's doorbell, but I know for a fact it's not difficult.

I right now can get a gun illegally from multiple different outlets pretty easily.

And, no. You can't simply walk into walmart and get a gun. There are still background checks and other precautions before you purchase a firearm.

IceFairyAmy
Posted on 11-09-17 02:52 AM Link | #91033
Another shooting happened in Texas...
maybe we should have a "general shootings thread"? It sounds a bit heartless tho.

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