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10-18-18 01:45 PM
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Main - Serious discussion - Las Vegas shooting New reply

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salty
Posted on 10-02-17 03:00 PM Link | #89862
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/us/las-vegas-shooting.html?mcubz=1

A gunman on a high room of a hotel decided to open fire on an outdoor concert festival. 50 have been reported dead, and hundreds of people have been injured.

I don't know what to say really, but holy shit, this must be traumatizing for people at the event. People are crazy for doing this, and my respects are going to everyone affected by the shooting.

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Jamie
Posted on 10-02-17 03:05 PM (rev. 2 of 10-02-17 03:05 PM) Link | #89863
Just awful... why can't the US have stricter gun laws across the whole of the country, then less of this would happen? :(
But then again, it wasn't exactly the gun's fault, it was the person holding it.

JakoNintenCraft
Posted on 10-02-17 05:14 PM Link | #89873
Posted by Luigi442wii
Just awful... why can't the US have stricter gun laws across the whole of the country, then less of this would happen? :(
But then again, it wasn't exactly the gun's fault, it was the person holding it.

Exactly the problem. One of the main tenets of America's founding was that you have the right to own your own guns and weapons. Opponents against gun restriction cite this and the fact that it's not the gun that kills, it's the people that kill.

But specifically to the victims of this shooting, my prayers go out to tyem and their loved ones.

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RicBent
Posted on 10-02-17 05:46 PM Link | #89874

[thumbnail]

Posted by JakoNintenCraft
Opponents against gun restriction cite this and the fact that it's not the gun that kills, it's the people that kill.


People that are in a difficult situation and just want to see the world burn may see their chance in doing that simply by the presence of guns in the society. The amount of people being able to save their lives compared with the amount of people who were killed by private gun owners is nothing. IMO it's a bit embarrising for a modern society like the US not to be able to forbid or at least restrict the ability of private people to own a gun.

Personally I have never seen a private person in my live carrying a gun. And it is better like this.

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Belsaw
Posted on 10-02-17 06:48 PM (rev. 3 of 10-02-17 06:50 PM) Link | #89877
The problems isn't guns like non-automatic rifles and handguns. The problem is the shooter was a mentally ill person who somehow was able to get their hands on a fully-automatic assault rifle which are already strictly regulated (and outright banned in some places). It's like with the Orlando gayclub shooting. (Just so everyone knows, I myself am gay). The problem wasn't guns, the problem was a religious extremist who believed gays are "infidels" who should be killed and he was on the no-fly list yet he was able to illegally obtain a gun.

Personally, I'm for continuing to make sure guns do not get into the wrong hands and making sure guns are not sold on the black market. As long as we actually improve upon that, we won't need "more gun control". But I am also against outright banning guns like non-automatic rifles and handguns.

Using the no-fly list would help but the problem is a few people may be unfairly placed on it. Using the larger terrorist watchlist would also work but once again, people may be unfairly placed on it. For example, I am definitely not on the no-fly list but I may be on the terrorist watchlist for openly supporting the PKK, a Kurdish resistance group in Turkey that is classified as a "terrorist organization" by NATO just because Turkey is a NATO member.

Edit: Yes, I know not all mentally ill people are problematic. But this shooter was apparently a psychopath.

RicBent
Posted on 10-02-17 06:54 PM Link | #89878

I just don't understand why'd you ever need a gun in a modern society. They are literally useless.

And even if he only had a normal gun. People 'd have died.

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shibboleet
Posted on 10-02-17 06:56 PM Link | #89879
a CBS former vice president said she had no sympathy because the people were probably republican

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Belsaw
Posted on 10-02-17 07:17 PM Link | #89883
@RicBent I can see your reasoning but it may at least be useful in certain situations like out in the wilderness or outside on the streets late at night. In theory, no one (police included) would need guns except for the military but it's become very ingrained into society that an outright ban on all guns would cause more crime akin to Alcohol Prohibition. Unless all the criminals are disarmed first which can be easier to do by ending the so-called "War on Drugs".

@shibboleet As much as I dislike both Democrats and Republicans, that's just fucked up. That's like if I said I have no sympathy for victims of attacks on places of worship because they're religious.

Swingball
Posted on 10-02-17 07:24 PM Link | #89885
My condolences everyone... :(

But yeah, either we need more gun control or enforce the gun control we already have.

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RicBent
Posted on 10-02-17 07:42 PM (rev. 2 of 10-02-17 07:42 PM) Link | #89889

Posted by Belsaw
@RicBent I can see your reasoning but it may at least be useful in certain situations like out in the wilderness or outside on the streets late at night. In theory, no one (police included) would need guns except for the military but it's become very ingrained into society that an outright ban on all guns would cause more crime akin to Alcohol Prohibition. Unless all the criminals are disarmed first which can be easier to do by ending the so-called "War on Drugs".


Yeah, guns are useful in the streets, late at night to raid people.
No one needs a gun in the wilderness despite for hunting. But hunting gear is usually not comparable with normal guns and you have to be specially trained to ever get a license (at lest here...).

I guess I'll just never get why so many americans love their guns so much...

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shibboleet
Posted on 10-02-17 07:44 PM Link | #89892
it is pretty fucked up:

“If they wouldn’t do anything when children were murdered I have no hope that Repugs will ever do the right thing. I’m actually not even sympathetic bc country music fans often are Republican gun toters.”


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Baby Luigi
Posted on 10-02-17 08:28 PM (rev. 2 of 10-02-17 08:29 PM) Link | #89895
Just because you disagree with Republican ideology doesn't mean you can act like a total fuckwit towards times where your political beliefs don't matter a bit. Have a heart, for fuck's sake.

Screw that person. Screw that person so much.

LeftyGreenMario
Posted on 10-02-17 08:51 PM (rev. 5 of 10-02-17 09:04 PM) Link | #89897
http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/shooting-isnt-about-gun-control-we-refuse-pass-its-57095

Posted by Belsaw
The problems isn't guns like non-automatic rifles and handguns. The problem is the shooter was a mentally ill person who somehow was able to get their hands on a fully-automatic assault rifle which are already strictly regulated (and outright banned in some places). It's like with the Orlando gayclub shooting. (Just so everyone knows, I myself am gay). The problem wasn't guns, the problem was a religious extremist who believed gays are "infidels" who should be killed and he was on the no-fly list yet he was able to illegally obtain a gun.

Personally, I'm for continuing to make sure guns do not get into the wrong hands and making sure guns are not sold on the black market. As long as we actually improve upon that, we won't need "more gun control". But I am also against outright banning guns like non-automatic rifles and handguns.


I disagree with your post and the problem IS guns. The "this person is mentally ill" is a deflection of the problem and the issue is this person's access to these bloody pieces of metal. No one is denying the mental health component, but denying guns in this is also avoidance and deflection, and this deflection is a serious issue in gun-happy hellhole America.

Posted by JakoNintenCraft
Opponents against gun restriction cite this and the fact that it's not the gun that kills, it's the people that kill.

That's a classic NRA talking point and this argument is totally terrible. It IS the gun that kills. If the shooter was carrying a knife or just his fists, far less people would be killed. Less suicides would happen. Less family conflicts would end up in death.

Furthermore

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/

Most of this research—and there have been several dozen peer-reviewed studies—punctures the idea that guns stop violence. In a 2015 study using data from the FBI and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, for example, researchers at Boston Children's Hospital and Harvard University reported that firearm assaults were 6.8 times more common in the states with the most guns versus those with the least. Also in 2015 a combined analysis of 15 different studies found that people who had access to firearms at home were nearly twice as likely to be murdered as people who did not.

This evidence has been slow to accumulate because of restrictions placed by Congress on one of the country's biggest injury research funders, the CDC. Since the mid-1990s the agency has been effectively blocked from supporting gun violence research. And the NRA and many gun owners have emphasized a small handful of studies that point the other way.

MarioBurger71
Posted on 10-03-17 01:00 AM Link | #89908

This is disgusting. People who do this stuff are mentally insane! I agree the gun laws in the US should be more strict, but the right to own a gun is written into their constitution, and their constitution is apparently "sacred" and can't be modified.

Jamie
Posted on 10-03-17 02:34 AM Link | #89911
@shibboleet Seriously... why are people trying to bring irrelevant politics into this?

Belsaw
Posted on 10-03-17 03:43 AM (rev. 3 of 10-03-17 04:00 AM) Link | #89917
Okay, let's say guns were never invented and no one ever thinks about the idea of guns. Well all mass shootings that have occured will still take place except they're now vehicular attacks and mass stabbings. As long as psychopathy and extremism aren't taken care of, people will use anything they can as a weapon: knives, bike locks, hammers, clothes hangers, you name it. Yes maybe that would mean less deaths but you never know what could possibly happen. If people really want to create a mass casuality and they have no guns, they would probably illegally build a bomb. If someone wanted to commit suicide and they do not have a gun, they would probably jump off a high place or threaten a police officer with a knife.

Think of it like vehicles. After all, both guns and vehicles can be used to murder people. Drive with responsibility and you'll be fine. If someone hijacks a truck that you need to obtain a special license in order to drive and uses it to run over people, should we get rid of all vehicles including Smart Cars and Mini Coopers? Remember any vehicle can be used as a weapon. Or would it be more effective to treat the root cause (mental illness or extremist ideology) instead?

If a faulty wire in a building keeps on causing fires that spread to other buildings, should we get rid of the building or should we fix the building's electrical system?

Yes, I know no one is denying mental illness but it is the main cause. The shooter was also found to apparently have explosives in their house. If they had no guns they could have gone the route of Timothy McVeigh or the Tsarnaev Brothers. Like I said, in theory things would be better with no guns. But then again, that begs the question of what about explosives and vehicles.

But alas, it seems people will always find a way (and excuse) to kill each other.

Edit: I should expand upon guns vs. other weapons. Yes, a mass stabbing does not kill and injure as many people as a mass shooting but it is still a mass attack. Let's go back to the building example. Let's say the building is made out of concrete. Sure, it doesn't burn down but it still had a fire.

Jamie
Posted on 10-03-17 03:53 AM (rev. 2 of 10-03-17 03:53 AM) Link | #89918
Yeah. As I said, it's the people that use things like guns and explosives for no good rather than the actual weaponry itself. I feel like it isn't helped that people have ready access to weaponry of this kind in the US, but not saying it is the main cause of the problem.

Your post literally hit the nail on the head, it was so good. ^^

RicBent
Posted on 10-03-17 06:50 AM Link | #89925

@Belsaw IMO your arguments don't make any sense. It is true that there are other possibilities to kill people but guns are clearly one of the easiest ways to effectively kill. Especially in the US where you can simply go to a shop.

Guns clearly have a ton more disadvantages over the advantages. You cannot deny that.

And the argument that guns should be allowed because there are other ways to kill anyways is, uh, strange to say the very least.

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Thierry
Posted on 10-03-17 08:07 AM Link | #89927
It's way easier to pull the trigger than repeatedly stab somebody.
What about mass shootings? It would take ages to do so with a mere knife or whatever. Not impossible, but way harder. Way more predictable, too.

Guns are not bad per se, but the regulation is utter shit.
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Baby Luigi
Posted on 10-03-17 03:02 PM (rev. 2 of 10-03-17 03:05 PM) Link | #89944
Posted by Luigi442wii
@shibboleet Seriously... why are people trying to bring irrelevant politics into this?


Politics is why lunatics are allowed to roam with guns and thus, why people die from the indirect result of that.

Posted by Belsaw
Okay, let's say guns were never invented and no one ever thinks about the idea of guns. Well all mass shootings that have occured will still take place except they're now vehicular attacks and mass stabbings. As long as psychopathy and extremism aren't taken care of, people will use anything they can as a weapon: knives, bike locks, hammers, clothes hangers, you name it. Yes maybe that would mean less deaths but you never know what could possibly happen. If people really want to create a mass casuality and they have no guns, they would probably illegally build a bomb. If someone wanted to commit suicide and they do not have a gun, they would probably jump off a high place or threaten a police officer with a knife.


If a knife was used instead of a gun when it comes to lunatics acting psychopathic, far less people would die, suicides would be less successful, and family conflicts wouldn't end in utter tragedy.

Think of this. The US has by far, the highest rate of gun death per 100,000 people in all developed countries. Take another good look at RicBent's post. Why do you think the US has such an overly bloated ratio compared to other countries? I know that correlation doesn't necessarily equate causation, but the US is practically known across the world for its immensely lax gun regulation rather than its high population of mentally insane psychopaths.

Posted by Belsaw
Think of it like vehicles. After all, both guns and vehicles can be used to murder people. Drive with responsibility and you'll be fine. If someone hijacks a truck that you need to obtain a special license in order to drive and uses it to run over people, should we get rid of all vehicles including Smart Cars and Mini Coopers? Remember any vehicle can be used as a weapon. Or would it be more effective to treat the root cause (mental illness or extremist ideology) instead?


The difference between guns and vehicles is that many, many, many people absolutely need to drive in order to be sufficient in society, ask anyone who lives in the suburbs where necessary establishments such as supermarkets. No one needs guns to survive these days.

============

I also keep hearing anti-gun regulation people bring up "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." I'd like to remind everyone that this entire saying rests on a logical fallacy, the false dichotomy. It's not one or either when the problem is clearly both. If the person holding the gun doesn't have the gun, he wouldn't kill, and of course, the gun by itself is harmless. BOTH are the problem, not just one or the either. That means we should regulate guns more strictly AND concern ourselves with mental healthcare, something the GOP wants to curb both from for whatever hell reason.
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Main - Serious discussion - Las Vegas shooting New reply

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