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04-08-20 02:44 PM
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Main - Trash - Shit's going down in USA (and everywhere else too) Thread closed

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Arisotura
Posted on 12-07-16 11:49 PM Link | #80167
oh hey, if that guy didn't want me to kill him, he shouldn't have stood in my way.


Hey, I'm just interpreting the information differently. Have you seen the footage? Of course you have and so have I. We just 'see' it differently.

what you've seen is, I guess, the mainstream media.

you just seem to buy into the official stories so unquestioningly. those are full of shit. you seem to think the police underwent rains of molotov cocktails when the protesters were mostly peaceful.

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LeftyGreenMario
Posted on 12-08-16 12:55 AM (rev. 2 of 12-08-16 01:00 AM) Link | #80169
Posted by PaperplateismGuy
Well, they deserved it. Many of these people live onsite and they have spare clothes, blankets, and winter jackets. If these people don't want to be hit with water cannons, then they should leave.

I don't think spare clothes and winter jacket's gonna offset getting hypothermia from being doused by a water cannon in the freaking Dakotas.

Nothing justifies people getting hypothermia. I'm very sure they didn't choose to get it as basic human instinct is to not catch it. I'm very sure external, unexpected circumstances led them to develop it rather than they were "lazy" and they deserved for what's coming to them.

Arisotura
Posted on 12-08-16 12:02 PM (rev. 2 of 12-08-16 12:11 PM) Link | #80179
Besides, I'm pretty sure they have very good reasons to stand against police force even as it gets that aggressive.


Anyway, I'm going to ban you, because you're a heartless asshole. Again, I wouldn't blame you for being misinformed, but:

* you think life-threatening violence is a valid response
* you think the protesters are mindless thugs who deserve all they get
* protests that have no direct impact on your everyday life still make you rage -- unless you happen to be a DAPL financial backer??
* you completely buy into anti-global warming bullshit, without ever questioning it. you are narrow-minded.


But the best part is saying that the protesters deserve their treatment. You value oil and capitalist greed more than human life. People of your kind have no place on this board. Maybe the oil companies will appreciate your presence, but we don't.

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LeftyGreenMario
Posted on 12-08-16 08:43 PM Link | #80188
Banning a user for sharing another opinion is a bit extreme, isn't it? The proper response is to call him out for it as you did.

We can't give out the impression that we ban people just for disagreeing with us and making statements that seem awful. I don't think it was PaperplateismGuy's intent. At the very least, he seemed intellectually honest to me. I feel like his position is held by people with otherwise good intent, but might be clinging to myths or are severely underestimating the scope of the situation (downplaying hypothermia).

I wouldn't ban people for being suspicious of global warming either (despite going against virtually every scientific body that exists). The oil companies have done a fine job seeding doubt into the public on the matters of global warming. You're making assumptions about this person; it's similar to those who call me a Monsanto shill (because they think they're right).

He's just going to cling into his beliefs more than ever, people who aren't sure about this whole thing will think we don't like opposing discussion, get even more on the defensive, and that's the last thing we want.

Baby Luigi
Posted on 12-08-16 08:52 PM Link | #80190
I mean, it's one thing to be questioning global warming. It's another to cling harder to beliefs despite bodies more well-educated than you telling you otherwie because you think these scientists make crap up. I'm sick and tired of people who think scientists operate on conspiracies, and the scary part is, these people are in charge of our goddamn country.

EVERY choice of Trump's cabinet makes me want to puke and hurl several times over. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. OF. THEM.

LeftyGreenMario
Posted on 12-08-16 09:14 PM Link | #80195
PaperplateismGuy isn't denying, he's just "skeptical". He sounds like a misinformed user, not exactly an asshole, and he doesn't realize the scope of the situation. I understand that protests that become violent shouldn't be condoned, but the protestors are victims if the police returns the favor with water cannons and other unacceptable measures.

As for global warming, he spouts off anti-global warming tropes that I've seen before, but he's not different from the other people.

For instance.

"IPCC manipulates data"
*I explained why that's wrong, assuming he's referring to the Y2K bug and Climategate (manufactroversy).

"Earth had higher CO2 concentrations before and it was fine.
*I rebutted by saying that global warming is different because the increase in CO2 concentrations are rapid compared to the millions of years ago. Rapid increases, shown in history, lead to disasters, like the period right after the Cretaceous and the Cambrian extinction.

"National organizations are politically motivated"
*I say, no they are not. It's the political parties, particularly the Republicans, who politicize it and forces climate scientists and other experts to adhere to the Democrats and therefore get stigmatized for being evil liberals. Some political beliefs transcend party lines, such as anti-vaccination and anti-GMOs.

"it takes a multitude of different types scientists to examine the issue of global warming in depth (from a scientific standpoint of course)"
*Of course it does. That's exactly what they did. And that's how they reached a whopping 90+% consensus because the high-quality data taken from VARIOUS means of measurement and statistical analyses are all consistent with the theory of global warming. Hence, global warming is a THEORY, the highest order of scientific explanation, a very, very well-developed set of explanations and predictions.

"As I started to read more about the subject, things didn't seem to stack up as I thought they would, so I became more critical of the issue."
*Common story for those who stray away from science. The anti-vaxxers say the same thing, but we know they just read crappy literature published in vanity journals or small publications who need papers to get up Or they read blog posts by nonscientists or scientists who have betrayed their profession. That's the thing, the organizations who stand to profit from seeding doubt can and will produce slick books and manipulate data for those who don't know better to convince those on the fence. However, look past the cherry-picking and outright dishonesty behind those books and graphs, and the data, when treated properly, doesn't lie. Scientists WANT to be proven wrong. It's how science progresses. After all, a theory is as only as good as its data. The reason science "was wrong" was because of plenty of quality data that contradict prevailing viewpoint, perhaps because scientists were unable to shift views. But eventually, it corrects itself in the face of substantial data that contradicts prevailing viewpoint. Global warming's case is that we already have multitudes of data to support it, I mean hundreds of thousands of papers in the biggest and most quality journals. It'll take nothing short of a miracle finding to contradict it at this point.

afaik, at least Donald Trump softened his views on global warming, saying that he's open-minded. If he truly is, he'll listen to the actual experts, not this cream of the crap of policy advisors who have no business being there.

Marionumber1
Posted on 12-08-16 09:40 PM (rev. 2 of 12-08-16 09:41 PM) Link | #80196
Not trying to backseat mod, but I also agree that banning PaperplateismGuy is a step too far. Saying the protesters deserved what they got is disgusting, and the global warming denialism is tiresome, but differing opinions should be engaged, not silenced.

As for Trump's views on global warming, neither major party was ever going to take the issue seriously. You have Republicans denying it on one side, and Democrats who don't give a shit on the other side. Both parties' views reflect their bought-out loyalties. Until corporate ownership of our government is solved (a very tall order), there's virtually no hope for government solving the problem.

Arisotura
Posted on 12-08-16 09:52 PM Link | #80198
Posted by StapleButter
But the best part is saying that the protesters deserve their treatment. You value oil and capitalist greed more than human life. People of your kind have no place on this board. Maybe the oil companies will appreciate your presence, but we don't.

I'm just going to repeat this. He isn't banned for "having a different opinion". He's banned for giving little value to human life and being entitled to it.

He's had all the freedom to speak until now. I haven't deleted his posts or anything. But this shit is beyond the line of what I can accept. The staff also agres with me on this. He was already called out on it, only to continue in that direction.

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Marionumber1
Posted on 12-08-16 10:15 PM Link | #80199
I can definitely understand that. However, I'm concerned that when these issues are tied up with politics, it's not always easy to separate the indisputable truth from one's deeply-held political beliefs. Even though you've successfully done so in this case, it looks somewhat politically-motivated, which isn't that good. Ultimately, I can't tell you how to run this forum, but I did want to share that.

Arisotura
Posted on 12-08-16 11:07 PM (rev. 2 of 12-08-16 11:07 PM) Link | #80200
I'm concerned by this too. I don't want to turn Kuribo64 into a political echo chamber. Debating is more interesting when different views and opinions take part. There's just a limit to what is acceptable.

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MK7tester
Posted on 12-09-16 12:04 AM (rev. 2 of 12-09-16 12:06 AM) Link | #80203
Posted by LeftyGreenMario
Banning a user for sharing another opinion is a bit extreme, isn't it? The proper response is to call him out for it as you did.


While Paperplate's ideologies seemed a bit fucked up I can't help but think the same way. It's a bit concerning that political matters caused the ban in the first place. I'm sorry Paperplate, just keep in mind to be a bit more careful when expressing controversial opinions.

Marionumber1
Posted on 12-09-16 01:04 AM Link | #80204
Posted by MK7tester
While Paperplate's ideologies seemed a bit fucked up I can't help but think the same way. It's a bit concerning that political matters caused the ban in the first place. I'm sorry Paperplate, just keep in mind to be a bit more careful when expressing controversial opinions.


To be fair, whether you value human life goes beyond a political ideology. However, the fact that this came about as part of a political discussion does look bad.

Arisotura
Posted on 12-09-16 06:52 AM Link | #80206
We're sorting this out.

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Tahcryon
Posted on 12-09-16 09:59 AM Link | #80209
Posted by StapleButter
I'm just going to repeat this. He isn't banned for "having a different opinion". He's banned for giving little value to human life and being entitled to it.

He's had all the freedom to speak until now. I haven't deleted his posts or anything. But this shit is beyond the line of what I can accept. The staff also agres with me on this. He was already called out on it, only to continue in that direction.

On topics related to political events, you will always have people who disagree with your opinions, and who stand by them no matter what. "Giving little value to human life" is a very mediocre reason for a ban, it's basically banning someone because they do not share your opinion. Paperplatism was just stating his point and defending his views.

Posted by StapleButter
I'm concerned by this too. I don't want to turn Kuribo64 into a political echo chamber. Debating is more interesting when different views and opinions take part. There's just a limit to what is acceptable.

Yeah, a limit that only you knew about. I'm sure that if Paperplateism knew that you banned anyone who's opinion you didn't like, he wouldn't have said what he said. You encourage discussion and debate, but resort to banning when someone doesn't share your views? Do you think silencing people like that makes this an unbiased argument?

Posted by StapleButter
But this shit is beyond the line of what I can accept. The staff also agres with me on this. He was already called out on it, only to continue in that direction.

If you don't mind me asking, which staff agreed with you on this? 2/3 of your admins are inactive and don't care about this board, which would mean that only 2/4 of the people with Gmod-and-above power could have approved of your decision.

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Arisotura
Posted on 12-09-16 10:26 AM Link | #80210
gridatttack agrees with me. shibboleet agrees too but he's not staff anymore.


Anyway, sorry, but if you want a board where people are allowed to freely spread discourse that is that of a heartless asshole, this board is the wrong place. I'm getting sick of constantly reexplaining why he was banned and why it isn't "because he disagrees with me", only to get more "you silence disagreeing opinions!!" crap. Does this mean that if a nazi were to register on this board and spread Jewish hate, I should let them go on, because banning them would be "silencing a disagreeing opinion"?

Think about this. I can delete posts. I can remove users without leaving traces. I can selectively perma-delete posts. With database access, I can even alter posts without leaving traces. There are several ways to effectively silence users, and none of them were used against PaperplateismGuy.


As I said, we're sorting this out among the staff. The situation isn't permanent.

____________________
NSMBHD - Kafuka - Jul
melonDS the most fruity DS emulator there is

zafkflzdasd

LeftyGreenMario
Posted on 12-09-16 01:43 PM (rev. 2 of 12-09-16 01:46 PM) Link | #80211
Uhh, I wouldn't put PaperplateismGuy on the same level as white supremacists, GamerGaters, Islamophobes, misogynists, misandrists, antisemites/neo-nazis/holocaust deniers, dominionists, taliban fundamentalists, straight-out anti-vaxxers, you're making a false analogy here. I know it's hard sometimes, but as I said again, this guy seems at the very least intellectually honest though clingy to his beliefs about global warming and probably very misguided about the DAPL issue.

Not saying that there's always two sides to every argument, but I think this ban strikes me as this guy is a heartless asshole because he doesn't necessarily side with me siding with the protestors, so he should get banned. The warrant isn't valid IMO.

RanAS
Posted on 12-09-16 02:08 PM Link | #80214
This post was re-written twice before being posted. *sigh* This is a long post so it's prone to grammar errors, me being derpy at any particular point, etc. etc. etc. I was going to say that banning another member for having different opinions is wrong and you shouldn't have done that, but on second thought, maybe not so much. I still think that a permanent ban is too harsh, but it looks like StapleButter's already aware of it. I trust him and the staff to make the appropriate decision on this...mostly.

Now, I don't particularly like discussions like these, since they always get me a bit upset (and invoke my sesquipedalian loquaciousness in certain cases), but I feel like I might need to explain my personal logic here. I don't believe this to be a case of rebellious protesters destroying private property for the sake of lolz. Remember that (what I assume is) the protesters' main argument is that, in such a dire state (which I showed in my previous post that contained the xkcd comic), is that if investment for maintaining world economy is needed, why not invest in alternative solutions? They sure could use the help to improve efficiency. Instead, more oil is being uncovered to emit more fossil fuel. Not cool. And of course, this is even more personal opinion, but I care little about the state of the worldwide economy if the opposite means that we won't even be able to survive to maintain an economy in the first place. Now, for the near-future, situations certainly aren't "end of the world"-like yet, but they won't be good either way. A lot of land is reserved for food production en masse, and it is already known most nature is very sensitive to climate changes. It isn't difficult to imagine that a scenario like the Koppai in Pikmin 3 isn't too unlikely for us if we aren't careful. You might argue that investment on more resistant plants and seeds in already underway, but the thing is, if they are able to invest in that, why aren't they able to invest in green energy too? What's the matter here, exactly?

Alright, so that might not be enough to justify the protesters being "right", but it certainly justified them being in favor of green alternatives during the protest, no? Then let me get this straight, why on Earth did the authorities react so violently to them? It's already bad enough in a normal situation, in a situation where green policies are involved it's even worse! No human being deserves to have their life endangered, unless they endanger other's lifes in which case things get very awry and I prefer not to think about that, but it doesn't seem like that was the case. At most, physical property was being damaged, not anything near bad enough to warrant such thing. There's a point where enough ignorance to a situation is enough and it gets bad. This is where I see someone get yelled at, not necessarily banned though. Please for the sake of humanity, don't say someone deserves to have their life on the line because they are trying to make things better.

This reminds me a bit of the protests here last year (that had less violence, thankfully) about various public schools (of the american type, not UK) being closed down, affecting nearly 300K students and forcing them to move to even more overcrowded schools further away from their homes. Read it if you want to:

Posted by New York Times on Dec 16 2015
The response to the announcement was immediate. First, the teachers' union organized protests, but they were ignored. Then, students protested in their neighborhoods, hoping to raise awareness among community members. They were ignored. Finally, on Nov. 9, a handful of students decided to occupy a school in the metropolitan area of São Paulo. Within a week, nearly 100 schools had been occupied, and, a week later, 200.

Although they enjoy broad support from parents, neighbors, teachers and the wider community, the students have faced tough resistance from the state government. Initially, the state tried to have the police remove the students by force, but that effort was quashed by the judiciary, which suggested that the government sit down with the protesters to negotiate a solution. So far that has not happened. Instead, in an audio recording of a meeting with school administrators that was leaked to the press, the government can be heard devising a "war" strategy to discredit the students.

It did end with a success, but not without the state goverment lying multiple times about the protests and also a major public outcry. Of course, it's to be expected, they were closing down schools instead of investing more on education. There were students that still were unhappy because they still wanted better education. No progress was made, but some regression was prevented. There are documentaries about it, but I don't know if there are any with english subtitles.

...y'know, the area where I live used to be called the "land of drizzle" because it always rained lightly during early morning, but it isn't like that anymore for a long time now because of the urban expansion. I've seen how it looks like in the not too distant countryside here too when I visited a relative's house for a few weeks, and it's such a beautiful thing. It might just be that I like the rain, but still, it's sad to see most people just don't care too much about nature anymore.

Oh, and on another note, the reason I don't like this particular christmas theme is because it is glitchy. The background on the table cells keep disappearing and reappearing. If I had to guess, it's because someone had the brilliant idea to use fixed CSS backgrounds, which even though they should work fine in concept, they always break something. I believe another user has posted a screenshot before that demonstrates the issue in effect.
"The quieter you become, the more you are able to hear." --Ram Dass

Yami
Posted on 12-09-16 03:35 PM Link | #80220
Posted by StapleButter
gridatttack agrees with me. shibboleet agrees too but he's not staff anymore.


Anyway, sorry, but if you want a board where people are allowed to freely spread discourse that is that of a heartless asshole, this board is the wrong place. I'm getting sick of constantly reexplaining why he was banned and why it isn't "because he disagrees with me", only to get more "you silence disagreeing opinions!!" crap. Does this mean that if a nazi were to register on this board and spread Jewish hate, I should let them go on, because banning them would be "silencing a disagreeing opinion"?

Think about this. I can delete posts. I can remove users without leaving traces. I can selectively perma-delete posts. With database access, I can even alter posts without leaving traces. There are several ways to effectively silence users, and none of them were used against PaperplateismGuy.


As I said, we're sorting this out among the staff. The situation isn't permanent.

You can count me in as those who agree, reading his last Post was more than sickening to me.

SGC
Posted on 12-09-16 05:09 PM Link | #80222
I was questioning if banning him was the right thing to do in this case, but the more I read his posts, the angrier, and out raged it makes me feel... I agree with banning him.

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LeftyGreenMario
Posted on 12-09-16 05:36 PM Link | #80225
Not sure if this is the right time to post, but here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/us-life-expectancy-declines-for-the-first-time-since-1993/2016/12/07/7dcdc7b4-bc93-11e6-91ee-1adddfe36cbe_story.html?

U.S. life expectancy declines for the first time since 1993, title here.

To be fair.
Experts cautioned against interpreting too much from a single year of data; the numbers could reverse themselves next year, they said.


Still, thanks, income inequality and shitty healthcare.
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Main - Trash - Shit's going down in USA (and everywhere else too) Thread closed

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