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04-24-24 12:59 PM |
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| 0 users reading Shit's going down in USA (and everywhere else too) | 1 bot |
| Main - Trash - Shit's going down in USA (and everywhere else too) | Hide post layouts | Thread closed |
| Arisotura |
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 Star Mario in this room you have a pile of apple pies Level: 163 
Posts: 7025/9019 EXP: 56254137 Next: 233507 Since: 07-03-12 From: in a box 
Last post: 12 days ago Last view: 5 hours ago |
The question isn't "what's the safest way to transport the oil" but "should we be transporting oil". When global warming becomes an emergency, it doesn't make sense to extract and process more oil.
How the hell can you say such bullshit when the police are using fucking water cannons in subzero temperatures?? How can you say such bullshit when one of their grenades did this to a protester? Is this what police should be to you?
... At this point, either you're being paid by oil companies to post that bullshit, or you're just completely and entirely misinformed. "As the world continues to grow, we will need more oil whether you like it or not" And do we really need more global warming? Are you saying we should accept the destruction of the Earth as a necessary step in human progress? "a slim chance of crude oil (which is a natural substance btw) getting into the river" Did you know that the 'natural' crude oil is not welcome in marine ecosystems or water in general? Have you ever seen one oil spill that the environment appreciated? List of pipeline incidents. It's more severe than you think. We can see that just one month ago, 55000 gallons of gasoline were spilled. Would you call that slim? Sure, the pipelines are safer than trains/trucks, but regardless, there's still a risk. And again, at an era where we should be reducing our greenhouse gas emissions a lot, extracting more oil isn't a sensible thing to do. Go drink a glass of your 'natural' oil and come back here, since you seem to think it's harmless. What's next, are you going to say that global warming is a conspiracy made up by the communists to discredit capitalism? "the tribe will soon, not be recieving water from the Missouri River as their water souce will come from Mobridge, South Dakota instead." Matters not. Rivers should not be polluted, period. Also, why couldn't they choose where they get their water from? ____________________ NSMBHD - Kafuka - Jul melonDS the most fruity DS emulator there is zafkflzdasd |
| Hiccup |
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Normal user Level: 58 Posts: 710/815 EXP: 1516459 Next: 61087 Since: 09-06-12 Last post: 1690 days ago Last view: 45 days ago |
"crude oil which is a natural substance btw"
wut. some of the worst poisons are natural. and yes, crude oil (etc) is poisonous. natural does not necessarily equal good |
| Arisotura |
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Star Mario in this room you have a pile of apple pies Level: 163
Posts: 7028/9019 EXP: 56254137 Next: 233507 Since: 07-03-12 From: in a box
Last post: 12 days ago Last view: 5 hours ago |
| PaperplateismGuy |
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Member Shpayshe Toads: YAY! Level: 52 
Posts: 627/654 EXP: 1045848 Next: 37992 Since: 08-10-13 From: Paperplate Land Last post: 1586 days ago Last view: 1598 days ago |
I think I need to say this before I continue: I don’t think global warming is much of a thing. I believe it partially, but not entirely. However that’s a discussion for another time. So when it comes to ‘should we be transporting and using oil’, yes, because I don’t think that oil has much effect of the climate. But, I understand your concern.
As far as the protests go, those people are trespassers and vandals. They do not budge. If someone is on your property, breaking your windows, and helping themselves to your refrigerator, don’t you think you have the right to call the police to get them out of there? Don’t you have the right to use force against the perpetrators to remove them from your home? So don’t you think the workers have the right to be left alone and not to be attacked? The reason why the police are using such aggressive tactics is because the less aggressive ones have not worked. So the police are resorting to grenades, rubber bullets, and water cannons because nothing else has worked so far. I don’t think continuing using oil is going to destroy the planet. About oil being a natural substance, yeah, that was a blunder on my part. And you guys are exactly right. Oil is harmful to the rivers, land and oceans. I hope oil is transported as safely as possible. 55,000 gallons sounds like a lot, and it is, but that about the fuel capacity of a 747, and as bad as it is (I hope we keep spills like that and worse to a minimum), volume wise, it could be much worse. As I said before, pipeline accidents are more common, but compared to the amount of oil transported, rail is worse. As for where the tribe gets its water from, I’m not fully sure what’s going on there. That’s just what I read. If we stop using oil, people will die, some immediately, some over time. Oil gets the water to your house, the food to the supermarket, and provides the power for hospitals (especially the backup generators). Oil makes the water you drink, safe and it gets you from place to place. Oil gives us freedom and prosperity, and if we don’t want to go back to the Stone Age, we have to keep using it. ____________________ Remember, every user has to start out somewhere,- Every time I look back at my old posts, I cringe. |
| Arisotura |
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Star Mario in this room you have a pile of apple pies Level: 163
Posts: 7035/9019 EXP: 56254137 Next: 233507 Since: 07-03-12 From: in a box
Last post: 12 days ago Last view: 5 hours ago |
You seem to have a narrow view of the thing. As if oil was the only valid way of guaranteeing us a decent life.
How do you think people produced energy before oil? Because, they did. Life may not have been as comfortable as it is now, but they weren't stuck eating grass and freezing their asses. It wasn't an instant transition from 'stone age' to the current world that somehow happened when someone discovered oil. Energy is possible without fossil fuels. We also need to change the way we interact with the environment, the way our society works. Evolution doesn't have to mean we consume more energy, produce more, etc... Regardless of the fossil fuel issue, it is said that we took 8 months to consume the amount of resources the Earth can renew in one year. Something is wrong there. Unless your vision of human progress is "exploit the Earth faster and faster until it's depleted, then hope to find another viable planet". re: global warming. The global average is currently about +0.8°C compared to the pre-industrial levels. Sounds like nothing, right? Yet the effects are visible. Ice banks are melting left and right. Climate is harsher over USA, with storms and other fun shit. Hell, even in the shithole I grew up in, over my lifetime, I observed a change in climate -- it became shittier, with less variation in temperature. The effects that could be caused by more global warming aren't well understood, but estimates range from 'not much change' to 'welcome to a world of shit'. Do we want to find out? I don't. Consider that during the last ice age, the global average was -4.5°C (compared to pre-industrial levels). It's a fragile equilibrium. So maybe if we stop using oil, some people will die. But if we keep using it, eventually everyone will die. Except maybe for the few richest who can afford to flee to Mars or something. (and noting again that regardless of pollution, increasing our dependency on a finite supply of oil isn't a good thing)
Are you trying to say that the protesters deserved the treatment they got? You are a terrible person. I mean, sure, I wouldn't be happy if someone broke into my house and stole shit. But would it be a reason to go and mutilate them? Does theft or damage to property justify permanent body damage or death? Maybe they could negotiate with the protesters, instead of calling them 'vandals' or 'savage idiots who reject civilization'? The protesters are human beings. And they're native Americans. You know, those we call Indians? They were always there. People who live on their homeland end up living in a reservation, like some rare animal species. Are we going to say those native Americans are 'inferior' somehow? They lived in harmony with their environment. They didn't care for gold or oil. Meaningwhile, our so-advanced capitalist civilization causes all sorts of environmental issues (global warming is the tip of the iceberg), leaves people with no home, causes war for the sake of profits... I'm not rejecting technological and scientifical advancements there, but the capitalist system is, infact, slowing progress. The more we stay under it and the more long-term harm we're causing to the planet. The time we will have to spend stopping global warming could be spent, for example, figuring out how to cure handicaps. I digress. So, maybe they could negotiate with the protesters. Solutions could be found, like rerouting the pipeline as far as possible, or, you know, just not build it and develop renewable energies instead. Or work towards consuming less energy instead of more. But no, they want their pipeline. Because they're going to profit from it, and that's all that matters to them. They don't care about the lives they would supposedly save on the short term with that oil. They don't care about powering and advancing civilization. It's all about money. So they will try as hard as they can to build their pipeline. Should people die in the process, so be it. Is this the world you want to live in? A world where human lives don't matter unless they're profitable? Oh also, the workers haven't been attacked as far as I know. The activists aren't completely reckless. The most violent actions involved equipment getting burned, but most of the actions were people protesting peacefully and locking themselves to equipment. ____________________ NSMBHD - Kafuka - Jul melonDS the most fruity DS emulator there is zafkflzdasd |
| LeftyGreenMario |
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![[image]](http://www.mariowiki.com/images/a/af/Mario_Mugshot_%2798.gif) Don't like politics? Too bad, it's-a Mario time. Level: 82 
Posts: 801/2062 EXP: 5096639 Next: 112588 Since: 03-14-16 From: Stabbing Wario Last post: 416 days ago Last view: 415 days ago |
Posted by PaperplateismGuy All major scientific national organizations say it's a big, bad, inevitable thing that we're living in now, and we're causing it. Any other evidence to the contrary is usually small-fish publications that don't deny the theory, cherry-picked from actual data, and low-quality and inconsistent while also being funded by major oil corporations. There is no doubt that oil has advanced civilization, but our dependency and consumption on it is alarming, especially when big interests care only about the immediate money about it and not intrinsic stuff, that when converted to money, can be very profitable or costly. They call it a "hidden cost". |
| PaperplateismGuy |
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Member Shpayshe Toads: YAY! Level: 52
Posts: 628/654 EXP: 1045848 Next: 37992 Since: 08-10-13 From: Paperplate Land Last post: 1586 days ago Last view: 1598 days ago |
I would like to apologise for the late reply.
Posted by StapleButter You’re right, it wasn’t an instant transition. I was exaggerating. Would you be fine without food, water, and electricity? Because that would be the world we would be headed for without oil. I think if we find another source of fuel, say biofuel (not ethanol because it sucks), if we can make it from plant material, that it could be grown smartly so we can replenish our supply faster that we use it. Oil is under the ground and oceans waiting for us to use it. We will keep using it until we make the transition to biofuel. I didn’t think France was that bad. I’ve never been, but I have heard it’s nice. Unless you didn’t grow up there… Are the effects visible? I haven’t noticed (maybe that’s just because I’m ignorant). But the average temperature has been stable since 1998 and there has been no change in the severity of the weather in the US. And I don’t want to live under the rule of a totalitarian society, but if we abandon what we have now, the first world is doomed. Throughout Earths history, the CO2 concentration has been hundreds of times higher than what we have today and there were ferns, dinosaurs, and whatever else. The earth survived and did not erupt in a ball of fire as some people seem to think (Not literally of course  ).
You’re right, no it’s not, but we will find something that will take the place of oil. Plant matter is full of hydrocarbons and I’m assuming with a bit of refinement, the result can be cracked and we can make more gasoline and paraffin. As for the DAPL stuff Posted by StapleButter I think they deserved exactly what they got. I guess I am a terrible person .
Not necessarily, I might feel like my life or my family’s lives were in danger though. So it would be situational. From what I recall, the pipeline route has been moved outside the reservation, and they are instead building it on private property (that someone has agreed to let the oil Companies use). I guess they could negotiate with the protesters, I’m just not sure what would become of that. Capitalism is the reason Kuribo64 exists. It’s why you can post on a computer or phone. Leaves people homeless? Maybe some people. Capitalism allows people to get a better home that if we had socialism for example because if everyone got given a home, they would be crappy. They would be crappy because there would be no competition, and no competition, means that the government doesn’t need to care about someone creating better homes. Under capitalism, people have the ability to work for whatever they want. It’s just a matter of earning it. Under other societies, we see constant oppression and starvation. Did Russia, North Korea, and Vietnam invent the plane, the computer, and the transistor? No. The US and Britain did. As for creating war, for the sake of profits, what do you mean? So if we were under a different system, would we have the resources to do things such as cure handicapped people? Because with oil and capitalism combined, we can do things that a person 200 years ago could never dream of doing. Well, the earth hasn’t been warming since 1999 so it has already stopped. (bet you’ve heard of that before) How is capitalism slowing progress? Well, yes they do care. They have to pay their employees (because the need to put food on the table somehow), they have to provide good quality oil for public and private consumption, and oil is what powers and advances civilization. Money is part of it, because if they didn’t care about money, the customers of their product would no longer receive it because the company would go out of business. I want to live in a world with freedom and healthy growth. I don’t want lives lost trying to halt prosperity. Well, in a socialist and communist society, human lives don’t matter. Hey! Just like in Russia, and Nazi Germany! What do you mean by “a world where human lives don’t matter unless they’re profitable”? Well, maybe I judged the protesters a little too harshly then. Posted by LeftyGreenMario I tend not to trust some of those national organizations as they are quite politically motivated. I have heard of times when organizations like the IPCC mess around with the data to make it conform more to the climate models. I have read a few of those 'small fish' publications and they are written by legitimate scientists who have examined global warming in depth, and found some of the results of such organizations to be fraudulent. Remember it takes a multitude of different types scientists to examine the issue of global warming in depth (from a scientific standpoint of course). ____________________ Remember, every user has to start out somewhere,- Every time I look back at my old posts, I cringe. |
| Arisotura |
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Star Mario in this room you have a pile of apple pies Level: 163
Posts: 7053/9019 EXP: 56254137 Next: 233507 Since: 07-03-12 From: in a box
Last post: 12 days ago Last view: 5 hours ago |
I will come up with a more complete reply to your post later. You make interesting points, and I need to reply to them, but not now.
I will just state that nobody deserves to get their arm exploded to the point where you can see the fucking bone, and to the point they may very well lose their arm. Nobody deserves that. I wouldn't complain about police using tear gas, but this is a whole different level. ____________________ NSMBHD - Kafuka - Jul melonDS the most fruity DS emulator there is zafkflzdasd |
| Hiccup |
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Normal user Level: 58 Posts: 713/815 EXP: 1516459 Next: 61087 Since: 09-06-12 Last post: 1690 days ago Last view: 45 days ago |
PaperplateismGuy, you make it seem like socialism and capitalism are mutually exclusive.
And about man-made climate change legitimacy: is "some organisations are fraudulent" (no shit) your whole argument? Because that can hardly be called an argument. Are you actually interested in the truth, or have you just come to the conclusion that man-made climate change isn't true first and you look for BS blog posts (or whatever) to fit that conclusion? |
| PaperplateismGuy |
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Member Shpayshe Toads: YAY! Level: 52
Posts: 629/654 EXP: 1045848 Next: 37992 Since: 08-10-13 From: Paperplate Land Last post: 1586 days ago Last view: 1598 days ago |
Posted by StapleButter You're right, I think those grenades were too much, and that no-one deserves having their arm blown off. It's an unfortunate event and I hope she recovers. However, I think the water cannons, whilst a bit brutal don't cause long term harm as long as those who had gotten hypothermia had warmed up fairly quickly. I don't mind them so much. Posted by Hiccup That's because, for the most part, they are. With Socialism, industry and trade are controlled by the government and solely by the government. Capitalism on the other hand, has its industry and trade controlled mainly by the individual (customers and privately owned businesses) and companies. They are completely different systems, although it doesn't mean you can't spice one with a bit of the other. Posted by Hiccup I only wanted to touch on the Global Warming issue lightly, so I didn't go on too much. As for coming to the conclusion before looking for evidence that fits it, and that's not true. I was told In school that we were harming the planet with CO2, and I believed it for about 4-5 years. As I started to read more about the subject, things didn't seem to stack up as I thought they would, so I became more critical of the issue. I learned about the science behind it and my view switched. How can 2016 be the hottest year on record if we've had an overall flat gradient (and a peak around 1999)? ____________________ Remember, every user has to start out somewhere,- Every time I look back at my old posts, I cringe. |
| Marionumber1 |
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Wii U hacker Level: 55 Posts: 577/709 EXP: 1239229 Next: 74960 Since: 07-07-12 Last post: 2215 days ago Last view: 591 days ago |
Posted by PaperplateismGuy Um, what? How is giving them hypothermia (which risks death) for any period of time okay?
What "science" are you referring to that contradicts global warming, and what exactly is your data source for 2016 not being the hottest year on record? |
| Hiccup |
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Normal user Level: 58 Posts: 714/815 EXP: 1516459 Next: 61087 Since: 09-06-12 Last post: 1690 days ago Last view: 45 days ago |
Posted by Hiccup I think you just contradicted yourself. |
| PaperplateismGuy |
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Member Shpayshe Toads: YAY! Level: 52
Posts: 630/654 EXP: 1045848 Next: 37992 Since: 08-10-13 From: Paperplate Land Last post: 1586 days ago Last view: 1598 days ago |
For the most part they are mutually exclusive, but not completely. So no, I don't think I have .
EDIT: Reply to MarioNumber1: How is using guns and Molotov cocktails against police okay because that's what the protestors are doing? I wish the police didn't have to go to such lengths to drive the water protectors away, but it came to water cannons and grenades because they wouldn't budge. First of all, what do you mean by "What "science" are you referring to that contradicts global warming"? Secondly, I haven't found data specifically for 2016, but 1999 to 2015 has had a pretty shallow incline in terms of surface temperatures. As far as source data, I use HadCRUT which is what the NIPCC uses as well. That is, as far as I know. ____________________ Remember, every user has to start out somewhere,- Every time I look back at my old posts, I cringe. |
| Marionumber1 |
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Wii U hacker Level: 55 Posts: 578/709 EXP: 1239229 Next: 74960 Since: 07-07-12 Last post: 2215 days ago Last view: 591 days ago |
Posted by PaperplateismGuy And where is your proof that the protesters were overwhelmingly violent? Or does one violent interloper justify a brutal crackdown on all of them, regardless of what they were doing?
You seem to believe that scientific proof against global warming exists. I'd like to know what it is.
Shallow incline doesn't mean it's not increasing... |
| RanAS |
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Normal user Level: 27 
Posts: 72/159 EXP: 110355 Next: 5804 Since: 01-07-16 Last post: 1786 days ago Last view: 100 days ago |
xkcd
Seriously, how are people still blind to it to this day? Either they straight up don't believe it or they aren't willing to do anything to help. I still see so many people throwing trash on the street, then afterwards when it rains a lot that the streets got flooded because there's too much trash on the sewers! No shit there's too much trash! "The quieter you become, the more you are able to hear." --Ram Dass |
| LeftyGreenMario |
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Don't like politics? Too bad, it's-a Mario time. Level: 82 
Posts: 802/2062 EXP: 5096639 Next: 112588 Since: 03-14-16 From: Stabbing Wario Last post: 416 days ago Last view: 415 days ago |
Posted by PaperplateismGuy Climategate? The Y2K adjustment? They're either bogus or completely blown out of proportion. Climategate almost literally nothing; the whole brouhaha was all over the use of the word "trick". Which refers to a mathematical concept.
In this case, it means padding out the time interval to better average out the statistical noise. Also, "decline" means tree rings, not global averages. There wasn't a "manipulation" of data, there was only processing the reconstructed proxy data to make it match the actual data. The talk about it was thoroughly discussed in full detail in IPCC AR4 Chapter 6 onwards. Any other evidence of conspiracy usually come in quote-mining. Anyhow, Climategate is complete bogus. None of the investigations were serious, except that some scientists were slow in filling out FOIA (freedom of information act) requests and wished they worked more closely with statisticians. Whaddya mean by "legitimate scientists"? Roy Spencer doesn't make legitimate arguments. Neither does Judith Curry. Neither does Richard Lindzen. Neither does Patrick Michaels. Those people have worked in climate change before, but they recently made terrible arguments ranging from full-denial to Bjørn Lomborg's "it's not so bad" camp. The Cato Institute is not a legitimate science organization Why do you not trust all the national major scientific organizations? They are NOT politically motivated. Remember, this spans across the world, so it's likely that they are disinterested and evaluate the highest quality data and come to this conclusion. You are painting them with a political tone because they do not agree with your views. You have to buy into gigantic loose conspiracy. If there was a legit dissent, the consensus of 90+% would be a lot lower. There are areas in science where it isn't as well understood. Climate change is mostly understood by those scientists, which is why we have that high consensus. Posted by PaperplateismGuy You were told in school that because schools are supposed to teach you only what's accepted by the experts (who are trained in weeding out the bad from the good). They also present disagreements with scientists too, such as how early the early humans arrived. Climate change understanding is much better. What you're reading is out of the mainstream and is likely cranky. There is no "science" behind being critical of global warming except the art of cherry-picking, quote mining and being straight out dishonest. We do NOT have a flat gradient; it's likely that whatever graph you're looking at has been manipulated to make it not seem so bad. It could be very zoomed in or the bad years have been removed, stuff like that. If you could pursue literature as you please, you'll find pseudoscience that will contradict that. Maybe global warming denialism is more coherently written and has the guise of legitimacy, but it's a pseudoscience. You can read about stuff like homeopathy and let yourself be convinced that the schools were lying to you, even though homeopathy is crap from a conceptual AND in-practice standpoint. Posted by PaperplateismGuy CO2 concentration was also a gradual change over millions of years that organisms can easily adapt to. Global warming's issue is that it's a RAPID temperature rise. Post also reminds me of this http://www.theonion.com/article/climate-change-deniers-present-graphic-description-51129 |
| shibboleet |
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 Fire Mario DROP TABLE users; Level: 123 Posts: 4303/4661 EXP: 20888403 Next: 342863 Since: 07-07-12 Last post: 1348 days ago Last view: 361 days ago |
You are severely ignorant if you think that people that got hypothermia "warmed up fairly quickly". This is exactly what you said: "ouch, my leg fell off. oh well, it'll grow back eventually." ____________________ a |
| Arisotura |
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Star Mario in this room you have a pile of apple pies Level: 163
Posts: 7057/9019 EXP: 56254137 Next: 233507 Since: 07-03-12 From: in a box
Last post: 12 days ago Last view: 5 hours ago |
not to mention that fires made by the protesters to try warming up were put out by the police
(and then the media tried using those fires as a justification for the water cannons) you seem overall pretty misinformed. I wouldn't blame you for it, but you definitely need to open your eyes. ____________________ NSMBHD - Kafuka - Jul melonDS the most fruity DS emulator there is zafkflzdasd |
| PaperplateismGuy |
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Member Shpayshe Toads: YAY! Level: 52
Posts: 631/654 EXP: 1045848 Next: 37992 Since: 08-10-13 From: Paperplate Land Last post: 1586 days ago Last view: 1598 days ago |
Posted by shibboleet Well, they deserved it. Many of these people live onsite and they have spare clothes, blankets, and winter jackets. If these people don't want to be hit with water cannons, then they should leave. Posted by StapleButter Hey, I'm just interpreting the information differently. Have you seen the footage? Of course you have and so have I. We just 'see' it differently. ____________________ Remember, every user has to start out somewhere,- Every time I look back at my old posts, I cringe. |
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Fire Mario DROP TABLE users; Level: 123 Posts: 4305/4661 EXP: 20888403 Next: 342863 Since: 07-07-12 Last post: 1348 days ago Last view: 361 days ago |
okay, potentially murdering people for a peaceful protest that a few people get violent with is ok.
nice logic. ____________________ a |
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